I could explain this in computer storage terms (having been a Senior Network Engineer and all)
but you know everything, so good luck!
I know everything? That is news to me… I kind of wish I did know everything so I could save the money humping the Jeep down south to put it in front of a guy who claims to know more than I do.
Not sure if the Senior Network Engineering explanation would help anyway since I am now told that the bugs in the last tune is that the overlay for the axis on the CAL tables was not congruent with the others. Basically when it starts running the massive pivot table calculations, one or more of the tables was jumping the feed-through of the program logic to a point where it should not be. An example of this is that the “graphs” overlay, but some of them had RPM scales of 500-6000 where others were 0-4000. Kind of like looking at a thermometer, there are points where the scale and units are matched, but the farther from the match point you compare the worse the match gets…
This would have manifested itself as a code or a really rough fuel management curveball for the ecu to process and in some cases, may throw it off until a restart. It would likely happen at the extremes of the driving cycle like cold start, hot cruise or WOT at some extreme air temp.
Seems the idea of over-flash may exist, but it likely not the root of my pain with the tuning.
A few things I have learned is that:
- My IAT sensor location may have been moved and causing the actual air temp to be out of sync with the air temp read
- This roots style (M90 eaton) has no cooling for bypass air, which will increase air temps in the case over many cycles. While this is not an issue, there are other (non-jeep) setups that address this with plumbing.
- The intercooler sits on top of the intake manifold, which is ideal to cool the air for final combustion, but basically the air is cooled, then heated because the Ex-manifold is right there. Over long drive cycles, the efficiency of the intercooler will wane according to physics. The lead engineer and I have had some talks about it and he shared some info about his testing of the affect of the recirculated air on “final” IAT and assures me the intercooler placement was designed and sized to be what it is. His advice was to be sure to check the tune at the start and during sustained driving (hot temps with high Throttle position to be sure the tune has the range to adjust fueling as temps change. My only concern is if the guy who did the install relocated my IAT sensor anywhere but the actual Intake, those temps will be off. Without the Jeep in my garage, I can’t tell where it is and dont remember. If anyone knows the exact location of a 2000 4.0L IAT sensor versus an '05-'06, that would be awesome. I cannot seem to find the answer online quickly. I was told there was a change in '05 (my year) but cannot confirm.
- Because of the design, the Magnum Powers S/C is actually a more efficient system over many other similar designs namely Sprintex. Charles showed me him comparisons and calculations. The HP and Tq gains are about 150% if you can tune the damned thing…
- Installation of a AEM wideband fail-safe gauge was smart. The tuner noticed right away that the MAP at idle was abnormally low and has now changed the throttle to find idle at a lower backpressure (-5mmHg instead of -19) this may help keep the low idle condition more in the range of the sensor and eliminate the sensitivity and the long “warm-up” on start for the fueling to balance and get happy. Rich idle was always an issue and this change immediately fixed that.
Kurt, do you know or have a way to monitor your manifold pressure and IAT? If so, can you share your “normal” numbers or range during daily drives versus off road etc? That would be a help to baseline what other systems are using.
Update 11/2
Nearly done. Tuner says all that is left is some refinement on hot start and a bit more work at “0 psi” condition and we will call it a day.
I think the tech got called away for a family emergency so it it taking a bit of extra time, but I am feeling like I will have the Jeep back for testing on my own in about a week-12 days.
Reports from the quality guy is that it is running “300%” better and much smoother with respect to how efficiently it finds 14.7:1 on the A’F. I think the tables have been re-tooled, but the logic has been refined to act more like stock with an extended range of tables for boosted manifold pressure rather than using stock programming for the stock range and a different table set for positive pressure.
At some point, I will create a video for youtube to capture the drive, sound and maybe some OBDII data to show the “driver feel”. Had I been smarter, I’d have done that before the tune and after…
Edge products makes a monitor which would prob be compatible with jeep vehicles and connects to eco thru obdII port. I use said monitor in truck to display all engine vitals and more… display setups can be customized with many options for info displayed
I have an obdii to smartphone setup, I’m just not sure if my obdii will give me too much data other than temps, and revs. I’ll play with it and compare
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You can check mine out next time we see each other to see if it offers more than your smarty phone thingy. I know with the Edge I have access to a lot more readings than I would know what to do with
dropbox.com/s/wxqi7rar5npfz … t.gif?dl=0
dropbox.com/s/bdo9qgp3ki934 … p.jpg?dl=0
The first link is a stock 4.0L TJ with 31’s, cold air intake, 3.55, headers and exhaust.
The second link is the LJ on 37’s, S/C and 4.88, headers and exhaust.
Realized power on a stingy dyno is very good considering all the extreme mechanical loss of the drivetrain setup and tire mass.
4 factors de-rate these numbers:
- drivetrain tires (as mentioned)
- I have added a “comfortable” exhaust muffler modification to make it pleasant to drive at highway speeds, increasing backpressure and reducing peak performance
- This dyno is very stingy and has been corrected based on weather data
- The tune is both slightly underfueled (in this file) and tuned to be smooth and reliable rather than post numbers to break any sort of records.
I think this represents the “right” realized numbers if someone wanted to compensate big drive train losses with a S/C power adder. The fact is, even with all the derating, the Jeep is substantially better than a typical 4.0L even after all the upgrades rob the power.
I believe this kit is in fact a “virtual V8”. For $5000, and a tune (which would be way cheaper now that I have done the r+d) it is a compelling option which now is proven to increase HP and TQ by a lot in both a real-life example and in a power band RPM range that matches the way we all use our Jeeps.
Before everyone gets too excited, I’m not saying a S/C is better than a V8 swap… In fact I think that entire concept is a foolish argument because what makes this setup versus a V8 swap “better” or “worse” is entirely dependent on how you measure better. I like “virtual V8” because I believe my final numbers on this Jeep with a V8 swap would in fact be similar especially at the 2300-3500 rpm range. When you factor in the cost of the swap, adapters, know-how, and DIY accumen it would take, a V8 swap is pretty intimidating. The more “kit” you purchase for a V8 swap, the more expensive it may be. The S/C is pretty much a price specific kit… You know what you have to do and you know what you should get out. Again depending on your skills, budget and final goal, maybe the S/C kit is not “better”, but then again, maybe it is exactly the level of power mod you need for your goals.
For me, I think today, it is a great option. Anyone interested in taking advantage of this development work is more than encouraged to reach out. I wish I had someone with a fully completed and tuned application I could have consulted when I inherited this mystery machine. At this point, I can help tremendously on the easy path to deploying one of these units for anyone interested.
I do hope to post a video link with the driving view once I get it back and run it for a while.
A practical guide to comparing where I got to what it might otherwise be…
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UPDATE: 12/18/17
Jeep is declared “tuned” per the tuner and his quality control guy, which consists of the tune shop owner driving it around for a day (tough job right?).
I am hopeful it will make it on Santa’s sleigh this thursday and be available to test personally Christmas weekend.
The latest Dyno curve is improved. The peak HP/TQ is reduced a bit, but the way it comes on at low RPM is better than the above posting. Peak TQ is 250, that happens early (2700 rpm or so).
Peak HP is 225. That is at almost 5K as you may expect peak HP to exist. Once again, the low end number is better than before. We all care more about 2700-3300 rpm range numbers anyway.
Yes the 250/225 is on 37’s with 4.88, which means the crank HP (BHP) would be really something to brag about if it were known. Tuner estimates about 1.75X the dyno number. This would very roughly equate to 450 lb-ft TQ and nearly 400 HP at peak.
While claiming a 400HP 6cyl was not the goal (nor is it likely totally true…) I cannot to more pleased with the tech result. I will post again here once I get to drive it for a while.
I have to say in the earliest post, I wanted to know if there was a tuning resource anyone can recommend. If you are reading this (especially if it is old…) I will say 100% A2Speed is the right shop. They have been totally awesome. Dave Kasper is the most competent tuner I have ever met and he really loves doing it. They do mail-in service of nearly all makes and models of mopar and typically can turn around a PCM mail-in tune in 24 hours. Dave does not use an aftermarket template, he tunes as Mopar would. This turned out to be the secret weapon for my unusual tune application.
If you ever need advice on computer management, I would recommend them 100%. Now, if I can only get them to come to GTD…
I’ll try to post the latest curve which shows the first attempt with an overlay of the final tune.
Screen shot, final dyno in next post…
Final dyno result
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UPDATE 1/2/17
Its HOME!
I opted to meet the transporter in Norwich and drive it home. All I can say is “wow, what a difference”…
I am not sure if the fuel economy will be too much improved because it goes into boost so easily and with no cross-over hesitation or A/F issues so I now drive it like a blown engine would be driven. That means incredible performance compared to the last tune, but it also means it can eat gas like never before…
The only way to describe the change is that it is like I have a 60mph tail wind when I grab 3 -4 lb of boost up hills where before it felt like I was weighing an anchor.
Idle was so smooth and lumpy I thought it there was something wrong when I fired it up. It now has a “V8-like” gallop at a straight-6 tempo.
A2Speed is simply amazing. They were very fair on the price for all this tuning since I was more than compassionate to flex the time it took and how hard I rode them to get it back. If anyone decided to PCM tune with them, you can mail it in and back in less than 5 days. I would say the price to transport and have it tuned at the shop is very high for most typical applications and also not required.
So ends the “is there a tuner out there?” thread. I hope this can stand as an example of a very good option for MOPAR applications and any OBDII wranglers.
Thanks for following the posts. If I do get a video up on youtube (maybe when it warms up over 30 degF…) I will post it here.
Awesome news JJ!
When I get the correct full flow exhaust on mine and the newer intercooler I
plan on revisiting my tune! (might check these guys out to see if they tune Diablo’s)
I am guessing they can tune right over the PCM direct like mine. I am pretty sure Dave has HP tune and SCT (Diablo) package too. For the TJ, the tables suck for all those ECU program charts. For a JK, I think they package is much more complete meaning they may not lose any tuning functions by using the aftermarket software. 3.6 and 3.8 have a huge advantage when it comes to the computer (among other things). I am sure it will be much more straightforward for you than for me. Tell them I sent you, Dave will blush because I joked with him that he was famous now because I posted this project on the OSJ Forum!